Worst Internet Marketing Advice I've Ever Heard

Hi Rick,

I totally agree with you on this. I used to be subscribed to too many so called "guru" lists and a lot of their material simply contradicted one an other. I now follow a very select few proven marketers.

I totally with you, Rick, How many emails does Ross want you to have or more to the point, does he think everyone has a 200GB hard Drive in their computer. Totally useless post I think he should stay away from speaking If that is the type of comments he is coming out with.

Hugh

Hugh Frasers last blog post..The Secret Affiliate Code Reveals All…

You are so good to us… You are doing the best video's these days.

"I believe you should sign up for every single newsletter you can find"

Are you kidding me? I get better information from Twitter.

And… with twitter I can "unsubcribe" from anyone with one click… I don't have to jump through hoops to get you out of my da*(n inbox.

Just today I got at least 10 emails telling me they had the inside scoop on this great blogging software… geeeezzz, get off my back. I got stufffs to do!!!

Debra THAT Public Domain Divas last blog post..Bump Up Your Affiliate Marketing Commission

Rick, to suggest something like that, Mr. Goldberg obviously didn't read the majority of comments on your Stompernet post, that voiced overwhelmingly that people are fed up with the 'guru schmooze, product launch, giveaway, BUY THIS, what, you expect REAL content' overload.

With advice like this, is it any wonder that newbies spend so much time chasing their tail - and 95% of them never catch it?

Sharon Bray-McPherson
@sbraymcpherson

You know, it's really not that hard. Subscribe to the people that resonate with you, who you trust, and who produce enough actionable content that you know THEY know what they're doing.

Those marketers that you don't care for, that don't "speak" to where you are, etc. unsubscribe.

The only way a shiesty marketer would give the advice of subscribing to EVERYTHING is if he himself was experiencing dwindling opt-ins…

Michelle MacPhearsons last blog post..9pm EST Tonight (Freebie)

Ross must have all the time in the world to read all those e-mails, furtermore he must be one of the most confused persons on earth.

I agree the worst advice ever.

Susanne Fs last blog post..Twitter Integrated with Squidoo

OOOH Michelle - that's gonna leave a mark!

Gosh I love good sarcastic humor. LOL

You need to get over to http://en.gravatar.com/ and upload one of those hot photos of your-gorgeous-self!

Rick

FACT: Hardly anyone really "subscribes" to an Internet marketer's list…

You get name squeezed in to get that rock solid "I can't believe I'm giving this away" so called FREE content and then the offers start.

Rick

Whoa

I wonder how many lists that would be? I would guess probably 500 emails a day times 30 days that's 15000 a month. 5 minutes an email after following links that's 75000 minutes a month…

Lets see that's 1250 hours a month.

Wow now that's a full time job!

A person would have to be immortal to get through them.

I'll go against the crowd on this one.

I do subscribe to a lot of people's lists. But I don't read them all.

I just scan on what's happening in the internet marketing world and then tell my list about it.

The point is not to spend time reading all the same email promotions. If an email is about the same promotion then delete.

At the end of the day, I just read about 10 emails.

Alan Chengs last blog post..Article Marketing - Top 7 Reasons The Articles You Write Suck

I thoroughly enjoyed your common sense video, watching is okay to start but then you have to get busy doing something to get results. Weed out the newsletters you subscribe to on a regular basis so you can focus on your income producing activities.

Melodys last blog post..Watkins Lady’s Twitter Updates for 2008-06-13

Hi Rick, you can find a lot more bad advice from his ebooks and teachings.

But nice job on getting it out there that you shouldn't on everyones list - Internet Marketing is already an incest cluster.

Maybe this preaches the lesson to unsubscribe from Ross Goldberg's list to avoid bad internet marketing advice?

Food for thought.

Take care.

I forgot to say if you want to know what is going on at IM just go over here
http://www.imnewswatch.com/ - to get a quick overview of what is the latest buzz from the IM guys, no need to subscribe to their lists.

Susanne Fs last blog post..Twitter Integrated with Squidoo

I'm going to have to straddle the line on this one - being subscribed to some lists isn't a bad thing (if you can stop yourself from buying stuff - and wasting time with all the hype and free content whatnot)

But, like Michelle said, subscribe to marketers who know what they're doing, and who you resonate with. Ignore everyone else.

I'm on a few lists that have my attention every time I get an email - not really for the pitch, but for how they do the pitch. And a few I read for the content (sadly, that's hard to find these days… I'm also guilty of that)

Jason DeVelviss last blog post..Google Toolbar Plugin

[quote]Do you think it's a GOOD IDEA to subscribe to every email newsletter you can find and use them for research[/quote]??

Hello Rick,

Yes. I DO believe it's a GOOD IDEA to subscribe to email newsletters for market research. I am getting lot of product ideas from those promotional emails. Here is what I have done in my email program:-

1) I created a seperate Identity in my Outlook express email program. (File->identities-> manage identities). I named that identity as 'Marketing Research'. Then setup a gmail account exclusively for this purpose.

2) I created seperate folders for PLR offers Master Resale offer, product launch announcements etc etc.

3) Then Created an email filter to forward incoming emails to related folders automatically.

4) Every day I spent around 30 minutes to scan through those folders.

This is what I am doing with those information;-

When I browse the PLR offers folder, I can see all those PLR products and see who is started the offer and originator of the PLR package etc. If its a new offer, I immediately purchase that PLR product and promote it into my list ASAP.

When I browse new product prelaunch offers folder, I immediately read their salespage and see whether its marketable and if I found its very hot, then immediately post a work in RentACoder to create a duplicate of that software/script with few added features.

I don't post all of my techniques here.
This is my idea and NO credit to Ross Goldberg on this.

Rick, I am a regular reader of your posts, but just cannot agree that Ross's advice is NOT that worst.

Have a nice day,
Amy.

Well if he's so smart and a "big deal" marketer why can't he afford to buy his own domain instead of the hyphenated crap URL he has now? Bah I give up.

Of COURSE you should sign up to EVERY single one you can find, that means for every crap pen name/pseudonym he uses to flood the already packed IM niche with "new" rergutitation of the same old crap. bah. I'm done. Your's is actually one of the few lists I still read Rick.

should have been regurgitation there…

Can I say - you have here very sharp move. From little thing seems it has grown into internet marketer fight.

Got to admit - your advice is quite right. We have too many lists to follow to little time to actually do anything for the business.

Alan Cheng also makes sense - but I guess it is the stage when you have deleted at last the very end of 'guru' lists and stick with these who seems to be top end.

Sandiss last blog post..Aloeride Joins MoreNiche

Rick,

What you are saying would have been an issue assuming that we only had access to one email address and only one.

What about Gmail?

How hard is it to open a new gmail account and sign up to any email list you find… and have gmail automatically sort emails in filters?

You then get an education from all sorts of marketers… you have a swipe file and figure out what works and what doesn't work for various marketers by the way they email.

So yes, if we had only one email address it might not be a good idea to flood it with marketers' emails.

But in reality we have access to lots of throwaway email addresses like Gmail… and if you like learning about marketing - I think Ross' idea is brilliant.

So you sign up to a marketer who doesn't seem to know what he is doing and he is wasting your time… why not unsubscribe? Why is it an issue?

Regards,
Stelios

Hi Rick

I kinda do that now… or should I say "did" it… now only with 21 "regulars" who get filtered by my email client and sent to a "guru" folder. It's currently showing 57 unread messages from just the past 5 days… and a TOTAL of 500 messages over the last two months.

While I thought it was a great idea at the time to remove/segment these from my inbox, do I now ever go and look at the "guru" folder? Hardly

But to sign up to as many lists as you can, and then "filter" them so you can have a browse through them once a week?

While it might happen at the start… as time goes on, it's just a waste of bandwidth!

And as far as my "normal" inbox is concerned… I am getting oh so tired of seeing the same old uninspiring names and messages that keep popping up every morning when I open my email client…

It's just taking all the fun out of my day, knowing that the first thing I have to do EVERY morning is just straight out delete 50 or more of the "same old, same old" type of lame marketing message

So whenever I get a chance to hit that unsub link… Look out!

Cheers
Stephen Spry
YourListBlueprint.com

Stephen Sprys last blog post..A Better Opt-In Process

What timing! I just spent about 15 minutes this morning unsubscribing from a number of lists that I had been merely deleting e-mail from.

Although I agree that there are some marketers worthwhile staying subscribed to just to keep up-to-date on what's happening in the marketplace, most lists aren't worth my time. Get too many and you're wasting valuable coffee time deleting unwanted e-mail.

[...] Butts just posted a video about the "Worst Internet Marketing Advice He's Ever Heard", and it's right on the money, in my [...]

To the people who seriously think they are getting value from creating multiple folders for sorting email offers - and for the guy who subscribes to a lot of lists, then send the distillation of all he reads to his list…

You guys REALLY need to read The Four Hour Work Week - AGAIN.

You are wasting your time.

IMHBAO your time would be better spent working through a clear marketing plan - and when presented with a challenge GOOGLE IT - and if necessary purchase a reliable training product that assists you in moving your existing plan toward completion.

If we got 1000 Internet marketers in a room and quizzed them on the value of emails in their inbox (not from all - but from most marketers) I believe there would be a STRONG correlation to time wasted - and real projects stalled, if ever completed at all.

And if you think you are honestly "keeping up with what's going on the market" you are deluding yourself. Email offers are sales pitches - not industry news - WAKE UP!

Like Suzanne said - if you really want to read an IM newspaper go to http://www.imnewswatch.com/

But, you'll soon find out that 90% of the posts there are not news either - just a cleverly stated lead in to an offer.

I honestly believe you could buy a $19 ebook Jimmy D Brown wrote 3 years ago - and have a membership in Jack Humphrey's Social Power Linking ($29) and get off the the "offer train" and you'd be way ahead in success and income.

"When you're running in the wrong direction - more speed won't help"

Rick

Have to agree with Kevin, above…I think the point is take up *selective* information…follow a few people in specific areas…like I follow stompernet…I know the hype and whats going on…but it gives ideas and thoughts for products.

my 2 cents…..

Paul
http://www.SEOTraininglive.com

I loved the video, and even more importantly, the message.

I used to follow that old doctrine of subscribing to everything under the sun to "stay on top of the market", but quickly learned what a time suck it was.

I remember that advice from back in 2001.

I've been a successful, full-time internet marketer since 1998, and focusing on what drives my own business forward is what's important - NOT what every other marketer is doing.

Thanks, Sunshine - love your blog!!

once again, I dont care - just thrilled that I'm 1 of the few blogs u ARE subscribed to

(even if its just so u can see the seductive header with womans head on backwards.)

Ahhhh u sure have proven your marketing head is also on backwards - bravo dude!

Ok, tweeting from bed - now I really gotta catch some zzz s!

@CoachDeb
TribalSeduction.com

Rick…

I'm never amazed at the incredible glut of bad advice that is often spewed by those that "play" or think they are "guru's"… to tread on the Internet you often have to get yourself a hazmat suit and hip-waders (and wear a body condom just to be safe)…

Info like the one spewed by Goldberg is all too common… it comes from an "I know more than others" viewpoint where they don't see past their own BS and believe (actually know) that their "followers" will swallow the swill they serve… it's sad to see so much of this around but as you well know it's impossible to eradicate now matter how much "RAID" you spray…

What is sad is that a lot of people that read that post will take the advice and doom themselves to a massive deluge of emails and junk that will leave them spinning…

By the way, your post is either going to cause a lot of backpeddling from him or an all out war… methinks the spine will buckle, not because you're right but because they don't have the cojones to go up against you… as with most of these guys they talk a big talk but cower when confronted with reality…

Keep it real, keep taking it to them…

Success!!!

Tony Blake
Marketing Mindreader™
Õ¿Õ¬

Tony Blakes last blog post..Re: Adwords 25 campaign limit

Thats not the only "stupidest thing ever said" that Ross has spewed out to everyone.

It appears Mr Goldberg is a lot better known than I thought. You speak at a few IM events and it gets around I guess.

Nice to see MR TONY BLAKE here at the Activity Pit.

Coach Deb Twitters me from bed in Hawaii? SCHWING!

Seth Garrison - thanks for running the numbers, dude!

Does this thing have the legs to hit 100 comments?

What's next - Rick Butts writes ebook about how to get 200+ comments on your blog?

Don't count on it!

I think I'm going after Domain Squatters next. I can feel the bile starting to rile…

Rick

To answer your question I'd suggest subscribing to a few but keep it down to just a few … then rotate fresh ones in now and then and drop the ones that don't fit your style or strategy.

Checking email 1-2 times per day only really helps you spot the repeat offenders, including affiliates with the same email promo templates etc.

Gotta go sleep - darn you Rick for another great thread
Peter Koning (on twitter)s last blog post..peterkoning: looking for places to advertise a "make money" product - any suggestions other than the usual ppc - blogs, other?

Hmmm….

As a guy that makes a chunk of his living from his list… I say Subscribe Me!

I'm as guilty as the next guy for not providing enough good content via email.

But you know what? My "free line" isn't so easily moved…

Yah, I'm going against the current grain, but the very best advice I've had in this business was nowhere in sight. It was behind closed doors… in a private forum or membership site. The fact is, information blasted to a list is old, old news. The really great stuff is not shared with the masses. It devalues the info.

Sign up for a coaching program, or at the least a private membership site.

Quit treating your business like a hobby.

If you need to subscribe to 100 different 3rd-tier marketers in order to sift through all the crap and glean one shiny nugget… you're just admitting that your time is completely worthless.

Even if your online business is just a sideline to your "day job", it's still a BUSINESS. Take it seriously. Invest wisely and take massive, organized, planned action.

/rant

And YES, my blog comments are nofollow. Get over it.

Nathan Andersons last blog post..What is a Republican, Democrat or Libertarian… in Plain English?

Rick, thanks for your honest approach to a time suck issue for everyone online. While I'll probably continue to get too many emails to really read, the list is being cut big time TODAY!

Yes, as Lisa said, common sense is making a comeback, and helping many of us get back to making money instead of wasting time.

Keep sharing the GREAT advice, Rick!

Rick,

I don't understand how people can learn from loads of subscriptions except how not to run an internet business. The vast majority of the newsletters are a deja vu experience, at least that's what I went through.

Anyway, I was talking to a friend last night who wants to get back into the game again, but wanted to do it better this time. That was a scary conversation. LOL I didn't want her signing up to a million newsletters like I had done, so I gave her the best advice anyone gave me - do the 30 Day Challenge. You'll learn what you need and won't be fed crap.

Then, I gave her your link, Yaro Starak's and Joel Comm's and told her to go download "The Big Butts of Life." With that combination she won't go wrong and she won't suffer from information overload!

As for those who think they're gathering excellent stuff from the zillion newsletters, take some advice from the cover of Rick's "The Big Butts of Life." "Get off your excuses and Do Big Things!" Cause in all honesty, you can't do "big things" by hanging out with the turds of IM.

–Yo (the Street Monkey)

PS: Thanks Rick for making hard copies of the book!

yobeeones last blog post..Curse of the stretch mark! The conclusion.

Rick

I never cease to be amazed at the absolute nonsense that some people put out as advice. To suggest to someone, especially a newcomer to Internet marketing, that they subscribe to every email list they can find is simply ridiculous.

As someone, I think it was Jason, suggested you should of course subscribe to the lists of a limited number of people who resonate with you and from whom you can genuinely learn something at a pace which is suited to you. The advice given is like me saying to someone who wants to learn about Coaching - go and buy every book you can find on coaching! It would leave the individual, at best confused and at worst severely out of pocket!

I subscribe to very few lists these days and those that I do subscribe to I read because I learn something from them.

Thanks for a great posting and you have a new subscriber - common sense is coming back!

Take care

Paul

Paul Duxburys last blog post..Blogging for Coaches and Success - A Free Report

As Michelle MacPhearson and other's have suggested, read those whose teaching's have proven to be helpful to you and unsubscribe from the rest, and btw, Michelle is one of those that you DO want to learn from.

However; I think the point that may be missed by following Ross Goldberg's advice, is what it would do to new marketers.

Sure, those of us that have been in marketing for a while know that we have to streamline our reading lists and we've learned to "separate the wheat from the chaff", but, the "newbie" comes into this game blindfolded and eager to be led down the path by the first "guru" that takes them by the hand.

By following the advice to "subscribe to every email newsletter you can find", you'll very quickly have a newbie who is drowning in information overload and running off in a dozen different directions, getting nowhere fast.

Sharon Bray-McPherson
@sbraymcpherson

Rick,

Reading email from expert-me-too-wannabe gurus wastes way too much time.

I did an inbox purge many moons ago. There are very few email lists worth being on.

Reality will win out on this one.

Great blog. All the best,

Lowell

Lowells last blog post..John Reese On Twitter

Hey Rick,

Something to think about …

It's easy to jump on people's words and twist them using sarcasm to generate traffic for blog posts and it's easy to trash other people's hard earned reputations.

What's not easy is trying to be the best you can every day and support people as they try to be better than they are.

God knows I mess up enough that I'm not qualified to point fingers and I have it easy compared to most people, so I don't want to point fingers at you either.

Heck, there have been days that I didn't think I could get through even though I'm blessed beyond imagination!

So try to imagine what you might be like if you had been through some of the things that others have lived through.

I had a great family to grow up in. We never starved. I have a decent mind and supportive friends. What if you didn't.

Would you be perfect? Nice? Kind? Alive?

I think that it's a miracle that some people can function at all after the things that they experience in this often difficult life.

The REAL miracle is that so MANY people are giving beyond belief, that they think about others when they might be worrying about themselves — and believe me those miracles happen every day.

So … I understand the desire to point out the mistakes of others. Heck, I'm pointing out something that you might take as a criticism, but really I'd just like to encourage you to take things up a notch.

Why take the time to knock people down when you can build them up?

If your goal was to give your opinion that subscribing to multiple lists was a bad idea, you didn't have to single out Ross as the example or twist his words to fit.

I realize that doing that generates more traffic to your blog because it generates controversy and besides, people enjoy dumping on others — it's true so we might as well realize the facts when we create our posts, after all we want more traffic.

I'm sure that Ross is aware of Google Alerts. He's been successful on many levels and I'm sure he would be happy to tell you that he's made a few mistakes along the way.

Don't we all?

I'd like to encourage you to share the knowledge that you have in a way that builds up instead of tears down, because the small kindnesses we experience have a huge impact, even as the the small hurts we inflict have a massive impact.

I'm sure you weren't thinking of harming Ross when you singled him out, but attacking Ross doesn't just affect Ross.

Having the experience of being publicly attacked not only changes Ross and his outlook on life, it affects the lives of all the people that he comes into contact with including his young children, his customers, his friends and yes even the people who don't like Ross.

By encouraging people to think less of Ross you are encouraging the viral spread of a message that says that we as people do not encourage and support each other, but that we belittle and attack.

If we look closely enough at any person, we would find so many things to criticize. In fact, look hard enough and you will find that people just aren't worthy of our support …

or are they.

I believe that every person has value and that they all make mistakes.

I also believe they can use all the help that we can bring ourselves to give them.

Ross is a grown man so he can defend himself.

He's a veteran who has earned some stripes and grew up in an environment where he HAD to fight, but I wish that he didn't have to because the world is so much better when we can push up instead of pull down.

One more thing …

About the advice Ross gave.

It's clear that people can spend all their time learning and forget about doing — with disastrous results.

It's clear that people can become confused by looking at too much information or being swayed by advice that is less than sound.

So … you may not want to subscribe to every list on the planet and you certainly DON'T want to buy every product.

But …

My own personal style of learning is immersion.

I believe that in the end, if we study everything that is available that the truth comes out. That's why we allow so many kinds of books that we don't agree with into our libraries.

Quality always wins if we have access to a wide range of materials.

You know junk when you see it — if you've had the chance to see some real quality.

Your chances of finding quality are significantly enhanced if you at least LOOK at everything that you have the time to read.

Obviously, librarians don't rule the world.

All the knowledge in the world — without massive action to COMPLETION — will get you nowhere.

So, despite many of Rick's excellent points I don't think that Ross's advice is bad at all.

Food is a good thing. We need it to survive.

And …

I'd like to sample a wide variety.

But …

I need to make sure that I don't become addicted to it, because that's bad for my health.

By the way …

I'm often wrong. That doesn't make me stupid and we can learn a lot from Forrest Gump.

Hope this is encouraging and not a downer. I want to make a small difference because I know that it matters.

We all make a difference whether we want to or not — even if we do NOTHING.

But when we plan to have an impact in a positive way, we can make at least some parts of the world a better place.

Here's to you doing the best you can.

All the best,

Ken

While I'm sure Mr. Goldberg means well his post is indicative of a deep misunderstanding he has about the internet. It is a COMMUNICATION tool and one's brain cannot possibly communicate by walking into a crowded room full of internet marketers looking for something to model. Ever hear of a needle in a haystack?

Haha. I dub thee "King of Controversy".

Oh, but how true it is. The more I unsubscribe, the more I get done. Thanks for a great post.

Carol

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you

When I first started out in this business, I got the exact same advice from a guru and quickly subscribed to a cart load of junk

Several unsubscribes later, I can approach my mail box without too much trepidation

I really think internet marketing 'gurus' have a responsibility to make sure that the 'free' advice that they are giving to newbies is accurate and clear

Again, thank you!

Amis last blog post..Adsense Units Best Format

Hi Rick,

I have been a subscriber and bought some of Ross's products which was very good. But in the case of signing up to every newsletter out there is a big waste of time.

When it comes to doing niche research, I do find it's a good idea to subscribe to the top 5-10 sites in the industry to find out what their doing. This way you can find out what's working and also decide what angle you can take in that niche.

I only recommend doing this when dealing with niche research besides for that the less emails you have coming in the better.

[...] is my response to Rick's Butts' video: WPvideo [...]

Response to Ken MacArthur's Comment:

Ken, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts here.

If it is not clear from the video, I didn't set out to create a controversial post to get comments and traffic - I swear.

I got an email notification that Ross Goldberg had written a post naming my own post - with "A Better Idea" at the end of his subject line - and putting a trackback to my post where a link now appears at the bottom of the comments on my site.

I didn't "single him out" as you are suggesting - I merely responded to what I believe is harmful and dangerous advice.

The immersion process is dependant upon that which we immerse ourselves

Immersing yourself in 30-40 Internet marketing lists as he suggests, is like saying - "in order to get marketing experience I'm going to TIVO all the commercials on television - and sit and watch them all once a week."

I don't know Ross's childhood issues - if he had it rough - welcome to the club. Abuse, neglect, suffering as a child or a young person is traumatic - I know firsthand.

But, we are adults now and I don't see the correlation to this matter. I'm not attacking anyone personally - but addressing the facts.

Your material on getting noticed in a busy world is excellent - but if you DO work to get noticed - you have to handle what comes with the territory.

If we purport to give expert advice, or opinion or commentary, then we all need to be prepared to give a good defense for our positions.

I stand by what I said; harvesting dozens of email list mailings as a learning tool is a dangerous waste of time - vs - intentional learning from 2-3 reliable sources.

The Internet Marketing info product world has become a sensationalized, over-hyped, over-priced, landscape filled with predatory practices.

And most of it is driven by these email lists begun not by "subscribing," but by name squeezes followed by relentless offers.

Rick Butts

Rick… what's the point in tearing down Ross? I DO know him, and he's an honorable and hard working family guy, just like you, me and all of your subscribers.

I know BOTH of you and consider both of you as friends.

OK… so you don't agree with him. BIG DEAL!

Believe it or not (gasp) not everyone agrees with me either…

I don't always agree with YOU, but I'm not going to tear you down and attack you personally… Actually behind it all you're a pretty nice guy!

I'm just going to tell you why you're wrong… and my friend in this case you're wrong!

Not necessarily wrong about the advice, but about the negative sarcastic way you attack a fellow hard working marketer. I hope everyone reads Ken McArthur's comments on this…. I couldn't possible say it any better than he did.

May I suggest you stick to the facts and lay off the personal attacks?

I'm NOT putting my URL here as I don't care whether or not I get a linkback, it's just that when you attack like this it cheapens our entire industry.

IMHO

Frank Sousa

In case you missed it - Ross has replied with his own video clarifying his position and offering a free report on how to manage an email research project.

http://www.ross-goldberg.com/ross-goldberg-responds-to-rick-butts-and-the-worst-internet-marketing-advice-ever/

You can see the video there and decide for yourself if this method for gleaning knowledge from following Internet marketing email offers is valuable for you.

Best wishes to your success, and thank you Ross for the gentlemanly response.

I know I am a smart ass - but, I have chosen satire and sarcasm to create humor to get stuff read - still I stand by my view and respect that you have yours.

Rick Butts

To Frank Sousa

See Frank, this is what is wrong with the whole thing.

To be critical of ANYONE'S ideas, work, opinions, or even bad advice, is to somehow viewed to be tearing down the person.

This is why the Guru types in this industry run around like stampeding elephants launching junk and overpriced videos - because no one calls them on it.

When did we, in the "information age," become afraid to debate ideas, and advice for it's value or accuracy?

For too long the Internet marketing world has been a "play nice" so that someone else will mail for you world - and the people who get hurt are the consumers.

"Tyranny reigns because good men remain silent"

If a large Aqua Elephant comes in the room and poops on the coffee table - I'm probably going to say "Hey, did anyone else notice the Aqua Elephant just pooped on the coffee table?"

Almost all the marketers I've met are nice people - very nice people - but, for too long there's been a giant vacuum of honest debate about value - and tactic.

IMHBAO

Thanks for your comments Frank, you know I love and respect you.
Rick

I have to disagree with both Nathan and Ken on something.

Nathan, sharing the great stuff with the masses does not devalue the info. I think the problem half the time is some people are so in to themselves they over-estimate the value of what they are offering, i.e., ego. :]

Think of it. When Steven Covey wrote his 7 Habits did he hold back the really good stuff? Was it devalued because it went out to the masses. Not hardly. IMHO, saying "going out to the masses devalues" is an excuse to sucker people in to make money off them and when I see it in newsletters I know it means crap. :]

Ken, to some degree I agree with you and I see what you're saying. On the other hand, if someone would have had the chutzpah to do this last year when I was starting out it would have helped me avoid wasting a ton of time. :]

Refusing to stand up and expose crap is simply conforming to political correctness, which is crap. So, I really appreciate Rick's chutzpah in exposing stuff. Plus, it's a heck of a lot of fun watching people discuss it out. When everyone agrees it's just freaking boring. :]

-Yo

yobeeones last blog post..Curse of the stretch mark! The conclusion.

My view could go either way!

http://wholesalerwholesaler.blogspot.com/2008/06/ross-goldberg-responds-to-rick-butts.html

Joe Richeys last blog post..Travelencia.com Wholesale Travel Travelencia

Hey Rick,

Like you said, "Tyranny reigns because good men remain silent"

I wasn't silent although I may not be a good man and despite the fact I hesitated to stir the pot any more.

I just think that you don't see how it hurts other people - those "nice people" that you mentioned in your post.

I'd like to NOT think that you don't care about those people.

I have nothing against your arguing marketing points, learning style or effective techniques.

In fact I encourage it.

The idea that because people put themselves in the public eye — by choice or not — they are open to personal attack at will — fairly or not — may be a fact of life, but it isn't something that I want to encourage.

In fact, I think that it is one of the reasons that so many people are afraid to serve others when it requires getting noticed by the public. How many lives can stand up to the scrutiny of a disinterested public horde?

Not many — and fewer would WANT to do it.

In my opinion, it would be better for all if we stopped judging people and started judging ideas, whether business, political, religious or moral.

I think that we can all raise our standards — self included and that one way to do it is consider the powerful effect of the words that we so quickly share with thousands.

If it was about the ideas … you would be talking about the ideas. Let's debate value and tactic not Ross's value as a person.

All the best,

Ken

Ummm… question…

Unless you subscribe to various newsletters, how exactly are you going to know for sure if the marketer "resonates" with you? Knowledge like that generally comes over time, right?

(And by the way, he didn't *stay* subscribed to all of them forever…)

Rick,

Will you pick on me next?

Pretty please?

Always a interesting read, that's for sure.

I'm sorta proud of Ross for not flying off the
handle and making a nice comeback video. I've
told him quite a few times that defending himself
in this manner is a hundred times more effective
then laying down Chuck Norris roundhouses.

Best wishes for everyone,

J-Mofo

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Should we all unsubscribe from Rick's newsletter? Ummmmm not me. I think I'll stay on.

Hey Ken -

For brevity's sake I'll try to chunk this down like this:

1. Remaining silent would have only applied to me not responding to something I felt needed a response - especially for my own readers to whom I feel obligated to provide the best info I can. I implicate no one else, not you, or anyone, in responding to something that may not even be on your radar screen.

2. I felt I was debating an idea - the idea of culling through multiple email offer lists as a method of becoming a better marketer - which I think is a bad model - for reasons I've described.

3. I'm now accused (by two well know big league Internet marketers only) of personally attacking Ross. How is debating this idea a personal attack?

HE wrote an article that basically said my perspective was wrong - he linked to my article. I create a video response to try to make sure the time line and context are clear - and it's a personal attack?

How is what I said a personal attack? I clearly said I do not know him - and am not in a positon to judge anything but the idea he presented?

4. Every single other product, service, writer, etc. in the marketplace who sells ideas comes under review and critique. Just because a guy speaks at events, or we've mailed for him, are his ideas now gospel and "off limits?"

90% of the readers here (and on Twitter) agree with my position on this - and I'm confused by the idea that I'm tearing down a man, as I"ve stated above.

Sincerely,
Rick

From someone who doesn't really follow any of the online marketers I appreciate the debate.

So thanks for the debate — it has opened up a line of communication that wouldn't have been there otherwise.

Regards - Vanessa, iThinkMedia.com

Frank Sousa @ 9:58 am

"Should we all unsubscribe from Rick's newsletter? Ummmmm not me. I think I'll stay on."

LOL _ thanks Frank - here's my answer for everyone…

Dear Friends,

If I start to send you an email offer every day - and multiple emails about the latest launch - and "free videos" that name squeeze you into OTO's and relentless upsells, downsells, and offers - then yes, by all means, you should unsubscribe from me.

For darn tootin' if you put these kinds of emails in a folder and read them weekly - you'll only be learning to manipulate people and be tempted to duplicate the same methods - and into the same market - the worn out - exhausted - tiny niche of Internet marketers who sell to Internet marketers about how to make money selling Internet marketing information to Internet marketers!

IMHBAO
In my humble but accurate opinion…

Rick

If it is not clear from the video, I didn't set out to create a controversial post to get comments and traffic - I swear.

Damn you had me fooled Rick, there was me thinking you were trying to compete with me.

On this one I am going to take the middle ground - you can pick up a fair amount from being on email lists, just the same as blog subscriptions.

@Nathan - some of us actually try to deliver original content on a daily basis. The art is when you get authority links to your posts, even though you have disclosed affiliate links.
I don't always succeed, sometimes the unique educational message doesn't slap people in the face hard enough.

If anyone is inclined to go the "dofollow" route, Lucia's Linky Love is the one I most frequently recommend as it is lower maintenance than predecessors.

http://money.bigbucksblogger.com/lucias-linky-love-a-dofollow-plugin-to-foil-human-comment-spammers/

Above all, I am glad to see more internet marketers linking to each other whether positive or negative in opinion.
That is the blogosphere rather than using a blog as just a landing page for your email list, or as a product launchpad.

Andy Beards last blog post..Paydirt: Blogcatalog Interviewed on Technorati Blog Advertising

I've been watching this thread with interest, as I find Rick to be really great at pointing right to the heart of the matter, with humour.

I also notice that rather than sticking to the topic - Rick's statement that the advice given by a specific marketer was bad advice - he instead was "frowned at" for "attacking" someone.

That is utterly ridiculous.

If Rick said something in a post I thought was wrong, I'd point to it and say loudly, "Rick just said this, and it's wrong! Here's why…"

I'm sure he'd think it was very cute that I disagreed and move on. I seriously doubt a bunch of associates of his would feel the need to defend his character.

The fact of the matter is that Rick's OP was completely valid - and yes, poked a bit of fun, and added some humour. I'd expect no less than an engaging post from Rick Butts, would you?

Rick, you're aces.

Lisa Prestons last blog post..Rick Butts Rocks

Hi Rick,

I have been following this "feud" (okay…discussion) through twitter and the blogs.

I get way too many emails now, but I do look at many of them and skim them for relevancy. None found — into the trash bin they go.

Some I save as part of my swipe file that I feel I can benefit from, but in general most of them are all rehashed hype to buy something.

So I guess I am kind of in the middle.

I am enjoying all the comments on this and I am learning from them how people are feeling about this issue.

I hope to use the information I have gleaned about this issue to better my own marketing efforts and not "blow out" too many people on my list.

Thanks,

Chuck

Chuck Yockeys last blog post..Learn SEO Bootcamp For Search Engine Domination

Rick, I was wondering the same thing. I didn't read it as a personal attack on anyone. I read it as a point of view on an idea.

I agree with Ross that doing niche research is easy
when you signup with other people's newsletters.

I'm also very grateful of all I'm learning from the emails
from many marketing gurus, plus you can always unsubscribe
if you want.

And if you feel you are getting too much emails, just use the labels in gmail

Lasse
Spain

Interesting debate…

I have heard others talk about subscribing to many lists. I have one email address where 95% of the marketers I subscribe to go. I log in once per month and scan the subject lines.

I do that to get ideas on writing subject lines that get people to open. Largely because I am not much of a writer

I figure if it was compelling enough to get me to open, then it's something for me to stick in a swipe file.

But that's where it ends for me. I didn't subscribe for the content. The other 5% that go to my real inbox are the ones I read for the content.

There's value in just about everything if you look for it. Even if all you learn is how not to do something.

If people waste time with information overload, then they need to reevaluate what they are doing and why. I was there. I was new once, following 37 different people with less than two pennies to rub together.

But, like a junkie, I hit bottom, then changed my own approach and found what works for me.

So, while Ross's initial advice may no be great for many people, I don't think it's the worst advice ever. I have certainly gotten much worse advice (for me) than that… many MANY times.

Nice post/debate.

Mike

Michael Ambrosios last blog post..This One’s Unique…

Hi Rick,
A week ago I'd never heard of either you or Ross. I just joined Ross's list and he sent a note about this thread. So I came to check it out. His response was gentlemanly, as you mentioned.

You make some good points. However, you clearly make an attack– if not personal, certainly mean-spirited — when in the first 45 seconds of your video you tear down the man's website banner, graphics and name of his business because it doesn't appeal to you.

Your video rant seems defensive and angry against someone who looks like is a much smaller player than you but is moving forward and taking action.

I agree you should comment when others criticize your ideas. And the exchange of ideas and active public debate is definitely a good thing. But the way in which you got the ball rolling and the responses of some of the earliest posters here… that doesn't do discourse any good calling people names and debasing others' ideas because you don't agree with them.

It's difficult, isn't it, not to take critical comments that disagree with us defensively and personally.

Others have said it in this thread before– take what works and leave the rest. Taking action is the key to success. Sometimes you succeed and sometimes you fail… but you gotta do something. I personally subscribe to those whose voices seem like they have something positive to say and provide information to help others improve.

I just signed up for Ken's and Frank's lists.

Felicia

Came across your blog from a post on Ross Goldberg's blog. I don't have any loyalty to him or his business. But I don't get it. There must be hundreds of thousands of "professionals" in Internet Marketing that give advice, good and bad. So why the scathing comments and personal attack? You don't think it's a good idea; he does. So what? The way you go on and on, I initially thought he must be advising or implementing something underhanded. Or maybe it's just to get things heated up here on your blog (or his) to get more publicity?

Hi Rick,

Wow, I've certainly heard much worse advice than that. I believe that there are different strategies one might use depending on your level of expertise. i feel that Ross might have added a bit better context, but that can most likely be said of just about any article on a blog. There could always be one more thing you might say or add.

I love the flourish with which Ross replied and the fact that he kept himself out of a cat fight by the way he opted to respond to character bashing.

Anyone in the public "eye" is likely to take some arrows, however in future you might consider a constructive approach to be more beneficial. if you do not agree, you can point out the problems without resorting to sarcasm and denegration.

You are truly hilarious when your humor is entertaining and not caustic. I loved your memorable performance at Carl Galetti's event last year. It sticks with me to this day. How sad that you have chosen this particular path with regards to Ross Goldberg. Why not make fun of the strategy but not the person?

Neither of you is completely "right" or "wrong" in my opinion. There's wiggle room on both sides.

I give Ross Goldberg points for an elegant deflect. makes me think he might know some martial arts.

I know it is giving both of you traffic…

And perhaps this is all a staged fight to up your traffic and get more attention? I don't know, but it is something to ponder.

ROnda Del Boccio
The Story Lady
Top Affiliate Challenge contestant

So many comments to agree to, but I will keep it short.

First, Ken's point of personal attack/tear down is not to say that you did so intentionally, but that your method has unintended consequences. The problem I see is more from a SEO perspective. By titling your post Ross Goldberg gives worst advice… and by having your URL /ross-goldberg-worst-advice you are dooming Ross personally when people search for Ross' name, and all they see is that URL and that headline in the search results.

(Don't believe me? Google ross goldberg advice and your post is already #1)

You are effectively branding Ross as a bad advice giver for ALL of his advice - when you are intending to just address this one issue.

I hope you will change the blog title to something different, even though you probably won't change the URL since it's already being used by other blogs. I invite you to use a cPanel redirect though, and change the post slug anyway to worst-advice-i-ever-heard or something like that.

I've known Ross for quite a while, and he sometimes comes up with some off the wall things that I don't agree with. But he also knows what he's talking about when it comes to traffic, and for the people who love the internet marketing, list building part of our industry, reading and studying what works and doesn't is appropriate.

It's not just emulation here, but exposure.

Here are some keys to remember…
Filters are essential to this strategy to work and not overwhelm.

You may discover some new knowledge provider sooner than most if you are subscribed to the bigger pile

You can go back and see what emails triggered a top 10 finish in an affiliate contest (usually one written personally with a compelling story and curious headline)

There's nothing inherently wrong with squeeze pages, OTOs, and great offers that provide value. If it's crap, refund, unsubscribe, etc. OTOs can be overused, sure. But procrastination is a worse evil online than scarcity tactics.

Enjoying the conversation and hope to see a change in the blog title/URL soon,

Bob Jenkins

p.s. If no one subscribed to new lists to learn more, or only stuck to what they already know, then no new marketer would have a chance of getting their message out, and new ideas would be very difficult to discover.

Result: NOT subscribing to more than a few lists makes the business even harder to break into and our industry to grow with fresh, helpful ideas.

I can see both sides here. Although I appreciate learning from others, I do tend to only listen and pay attention to the ones that resonate with my personal values. I'm more of the 4-hr workweek type and go to aggregate sites for the latest industry news rather than dozens of newsletters. IM Newswatch is a good compromise time wise.

I cater to female entrepreneurs and the biggest objection expressed to me is how aggressively worded everything is. One email provoked me so that I had to express my irritation http://tinyurl.com/5eyvv2 and the responses I've received via email from women has been overwhelming, cheering me on. I am open to learning, but I still feel my personal voice and representing the genre I serve has to be the deciding factor on which marketers' techniques I implement. It's not just about what works to make money, but what works to maintain my community of fans so they will continue to buy from me for years to come. IMHO.

Thanks for the great insights. Together, we are stronger.

Vicki Flaugher, the original SmartWoman

Vicki Flaughers last blog post..“Turning Your Passion Into Cash” FREE 60-minute Teleseminar for Female Entrepreneurs June 25th

Wow - I just approved 6 comments (I only disapprove spam) and the points made about me "bashing" and "comment baiting" or creating a "publicity stunt" or "critisize the idea not the person" all indicate that…

None of you read my comments to comments on this thread.

But, a special thanks to Bob Jenkins who pointed out an unintended consequence in the URL thing - although I can't imagine that very many people search on Ross Goldberg advice - like ever.

Rick

Yobeeone:

Yes, there are areas of information where there is no competition. For example, success principles, general internet marketing tactics, etc. But there are definitely areas where having the info in too many hands makes the tactics much less effective. There are a LOT of those little niches in Internet Marketing in general, and SEO specifically. After all, there can only be 10 sites in the first page of results for a given search at Google.

So I never hang out at public Forums, nor do I read much in the way of emailed newsletters (with a few exceptions… like Rick!). Most of the stuff in forums is not only rehashed, but it's rehashed INCORRECT information. And 95% of newsletters are just repackaged Old News. So I read just a few top marketer's emails; and a few up-and-comers that I know have the straight stuff.

Hey Rick… perhaps you should compile a list of people that you think are worth reading…

Nathan Andersons last blog post..What is a Republican, Democrat or Libertarian… in Plain English?